Advice about getting a Linux From Scratch version with sysvinit

[stevesr0Member]

I will probably never get into it, but I would like to know what is the most recent version of Linux From Scratch that supports sysvinit (and the latest one entirely free of systemd).

Posting here thinking someone may have the answer right at their fingertips…

I will also look thru the LFS site (with which I am completely unfamiliar) and perform an internet search.

Thanks.

UPDATE: Internet search claims this is version 12.4 (Sept 2025). Note that the udev apparently involves a tarball that includes systemd in its name.

• This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by stevesr0.

[Brian MasinickModerator]

stevesr0 wrote:

I will probably never get into it, but I would like to know what is the most recent version of Linux From Scratch that supports sysvinit (and the latest one entirely free of systemd).

Posting here thinking someone may have the answer right at their fingertips…

I will also look thru the LFS site (with which I am completely unfamiliar) and perform an internet search.

Thanks.

UPDATE: Internet search claims this is version 12.4 (Sept 2025). Note that the udev apparently involves a tarball that includes systemd in its name.

Steve, I’ve only actually tried Linux From Scratch once, maybe twice. I did go through the entire exercise, and when I came out the other end of it, the result was no different than anything else, but it took WAY more work to accomplish it, so other than the academic exercise of it, to me it was a complete waste of time.

IF, on the other hand, a person TRULY DOES want to learn how to build a complete distribution from the bits and pieces and is willing to actually do the HARD WORK, it’s still possible.

As far as the systemd image or setup, AGAIN, at least in theory THAT component can (or could) be replaced; however, unless they provide the steps or you can locate the steps elsewhere, now you’re REALLY talking about some very heavy research and even replacing entire sets of steps to make sure you don’t bring in systemd components, so it’d take steps, for example, of making sure there’s no elogin and seatd is used, and many other elements along the way.

So is it impossible to do? No, but it takes people with the knowledge that @anticapitalista has. I don’t have the specific knowledge either, I just know from a step by step process, it’s possible to replace all of that systemd stuff, it’s just very complex to do 100% right and if you miss one piece, then it’s not 100% clean.

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[stevesr0Member]

Thanks for comments.

For me as an elderly retired person, it represents an opportunity to get a little hands on for the tasks and components involved in a distro, with the goal of better understanding of issues with the distro I am using, which is likely to remain antiX.

[Brian MasinickModerator]

Steve, there’s another topic about “Could antiX ever be a rolling-release / respin?”
While that’s NOT the same thing as what you’re asking for here, the complexities of systemd woven into the equation becomes a significant matter.

If you just want to build Linux From Scratch without any specific regard to systemd or nosystemd, that at least simplifies that specific matter.

Since it’s been a while, I cannot recall with certainty whether it was a Gentoo Linux configuration or a Linux From Scratch scenario, but both of them, since their fundamental ideas are someone similar, start with a kind of bootstrapping convention. By that, I mean when you are building a distribution from point zero, there has to be some kind of “starting point”.

A loose analogy I can give you is that way back in 1985 when I first joined Digital Equipment Corporation (the long gone DEC), I was working on a project to help a team get device drivers onto a few small form factor PDP-11 based systems – interestingly it was for a telecom organization within the AT&T umbrella of companies, which had been split apart – the main company, AT&T, existed as a long distance carrier after the 1984 telephone company divestiture. It was probably a Bell Operating Company (BOC) that wanted to consider a system from us because AT&T and Sun Microsystems were close partners back then.

Anyway, I had to literally bootstrap load to turn on and start that system in order to get the new drivers in place, so I used some console switches to hand place the (thankfully) small bootloader, and then I could run the rest of the low level driver code. I’m pretty sure that once this initial practice was complete, the resultant system was capable of booting just by turning it on, but it was so long ago that every detail is difficult to recall.

Back to the task at hand: so once the method to START all of this stuff from scratch is initiated, the rest is reasonably straightforward. If you don’t know how to compile programs, that will be another impediment, but if I recall the instructions, they are reasonably clear, so as long as you understand the instructions, yes, it will be long and tedious, but being an intelligent person, I am pretty confident that even though building an OS can take a really long time (many hours, for example, it’d be anywhere from an entire “work day” to an entire calendar day, depending on the hardware you’re using to build LFS.

Just to see if I’m leading you down the right path, I’ll look for Linux From Scratch and see if there are any other “gotchas” in the documentation. If I find anything I’ll let you know; otherwise it’ll be a very nice project; very involved but also something that is interesting.

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[Brian MasinickModerator]

The only *supported* LFS configurations still supported in “current” editions of the LFS book and Beyond Linux From Scratch are all based on systemd. Since this is an academic exercise that is “okay” as long as you don’t have any personal objections to it.

A truly “advanced” alternative to allowing systemd into building your own system 100% from scratch would be to identify all of the instances where the code you’re building brings in systemd. I am positive that it’s possible to build a system without systemd but since I have not read the entire book or gone through the entire process I have absolutely no idea how many points in the process have those interdependencies. There may be a lot of them or there may only be a few of them, but once they are in there, that’s the difficult time to “get rid of them”.

Despite this, I think it’s an awesome educational exercise and I hope you still choose to do it and let me know how it goes!
My hair was still brown and mostly in place the last time I ran LFS myself!

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[Brian MasinickModerator]

From section IV, “Prerequsites” of the LFS book:

“Building an LFS system is not a simple task. It requires a certain level of existing knowledge of Unix system administration in order to resolve problems and correctly execute the commands listed. In particular, as an absolute minimum, you should already know how to use the command line (shell) to copy or move files and directories, list directory and file contents, and change the current directory. It is also expected that you know how to use and install Linux software.

Because the LFS book assumes at least this basic level of skill, the various LFS support forums are unlikely to provide you with much assistance in these areas. You will find that your questions regarding such basic knowledge will likely go unanswered (or you will simply be referred to the LFS essential pre-reading list).”

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[stevesr0Member]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for comments.

I will certainly use the advice as/if I get into this endeavor.

[Brian MasinickModerator]

It’s a lot of work, whether you succeed is not the point; even reading through and trying a few things, whether it results in a complete system or not, it may at least give you a greater understanding and appreciation of what goes into building a system.

Long ago it was also a significant exercise, and the systems were slower, but the amount of code was considerably less. You either have to have a powerful system or a great deal of time to create a complete system these days. While I saw something somewhere suggesting that a system could be built in what I *thought I saw* was on the order of three hours, I find that very hard to believe. I’ve tried to build a Web Browser a few times. The concepts are the same as any code building, but it can take 2-3 (or more hours) at least on my laptop to build a browser. Though they are not always faster in the interactive response, a server configuration is a much better place to build software.

I CAN and have recently built a few text editors directly from source, and I can do that in just a couple of minutes. While building and installing a complete distribution is mostly similar, the number of steps and the specifics that are necessary are several thousand times the number of build steps, and things like a kernel, compiler, Web Browser, window manager and desktop environment are massively more involved than a simple text editor.

Despite all of my caveats and statements about the time involved, it is VERY COOL to be able to even do some of this at least once, and if you have a system you can leave alone for a long time, it would be worth trying.

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[bookerMember]

it’s possible to build simpler systems from scratch

one for learning is sfs suckless from scratch (static, musl, tcc)
https://web.archive.org/web/20251129003812/https://nyght.neocities.org/Projects/SFS/suckless-from-scratch
but it’s for terminal and you have to build more software (cli, tui) on your own if you want to use it, but it will never be usable like normal linux systems
it’s easier to get the system running because it’s very light
without the kernel it takes an hour or two
on standard hardware you have to take a compiled kernel or you take a vm which emulates old hardware
you are free which init you use
and it’s very cool when you got it working

[Brian MasinickModerator]

booker wrote:

it’s possible to build simpler systems from scratch

one for learning is sfs suckless from scratch (static, musl, tcc)
https://web.archive.org/web/20251129003812/https://nyght.neocities.org/Projects/SFS/suckless-from-scratch
but it’s for terminal and you have to build more software (cli, tui) on your own if you want to use it, but it will never be usable like normal linux systems
it’s easier to get the system running because it’s very light
without the kernel it takes an hour or two
on standard hardware you have to take a compiled kernel or you take a vm which emulates old hardware
you are free which init you use
and it’s very cool when you got it working

Thanks! Based on what I know from the one or two times I attempted to build systems completely from scratch this is a good deal.

Something else I thought of: at one time there was a system based on mostly scratch software from either Gentoo Linux or Linux From Scratch called Sabayon. I haven’t used it in quite a while, but once upon a time that was a pretty decent system and you could tweak around with it; no idea if it’s even around or not, but we are tossing ideas around here. Yours sounds like one of the most appealing options for those who want to twiddle the dials a bit, even if we STILL stick with antiX as our MAIN distribution, which I’m definitely doing; it’s still fun to chat about other alternatives and occasionally try them out too.

--
Brian Masinick
Alternate "Search B":
This search page

[Author]

Posts