Future antiX Linux

[anticapitalistaForum Admin]

Just some thoughts/plans about the future direction of antiX.
Note – this is not set in stone.

* antiX will continue to be Debian-based and free of systemd and elogind (at least on all our iso files).
* We will continue to provide (an) antiX custom kernel(s)
* antiX will ship only with window managers.
* ‘Pure’ Wayland support is a very long way (sic) away. Using Xwayland *might* be an option, but it will not be the default in the foreseeable future.
* Multiple init options. Building on the work started by Prowler.gr, we hope to offer s6 and s6-66 init options as well as our sysVinit and runit ones.
dinit *might* also be included as an init option. systemd will never be!
* Better/More ‘official’ support for community builds as long as they do not include systemd/elogind and they basically adhere to our values/code of conduct ie inclusive to all except racists, sexists, bigots.

Comments welcome.

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - leaner and meaner.

[olsztynMember]

anticapitalista wrote:

* antiX will continue to be Debian-based and free of systemd and elogind (at least on all our iso files).

Thank you! Also *kit free?

anticapitalista wrote:

* ‘Pure’ Wayland support is a very long way (sic) away. Using Xwayland *might* be an option, but it will not be the default in the foreseeable future.

Understood, not a quick path on this. However Xwayland will be needed for some time. Even Debian itself has Xwayland running.

anticapitalista wrote:

* antiX will ship only with window managers.

The same set of WM’s or somewhat different?

In any case Thank you for continuing antiX. Looking forward to antiX 25…

Live antiX Boot Options (Previously posted by Xecure):
http://antixlinuxfan.miraheze.org/wiki/Table_of_antiX_Boot_Parameters

[PDP-8Member]

I think this is just fine. I just can’t imagine the thankless task of keeping tabs on what packages an end-user might pull in that accidentally deviates from the mission goal! So thank you in the first place for doing this. The choices and tool you provide are incredible.

But how do we keep the devs happy and not have antiX become a J.O.B. ? Ie, keep that top-level fun and exciting, not a chore from a support standpoint?

Perhaps some sort of “pure” script, where we can separate “pure” antiX, from say “deviant” versions, (bad choice of words I know), where they would best be supported in community areas. Ie, those that pull in packages that they know or unknowingly deviate from the mission, can still get support, but perhaps from the community, rather than have the devs try to develop workarounds.

Essentially I like the OpenBSD motto “Here is what we’re doing, hope you like it”. If you deviate from that and do your own thing – fine – just don’t expect official support, that comes from the community. Like those who build upon Net or Base and pull in stuff that isn’t on the “pure” mission list, and absolutely must have elogind or whatever.

Perhaps an end-user mission-script could be run on all the packages, and identify those things that stray from the mission, and suggest workarounds, substitutes or deletions to being them back “into the fold” if they desire….

[anti-apXosMember]

Thanks for the update! It’s good to hear about plans, though.

anticapitalista wrote:

* Multiple init options. Building on the work started by Prowler.gr, we hope to offer s6 and s6-66 init options as well as our sysVinit and runit ones.

In a single multi-init iso or still separate? I haven’t followed the “init diversity” discussion, but I had the impression that multi-init was working pretty well, right?

Also, about sysVinit, I’ve seen you say a couple times that Debian support for sysV scripts is declining and may end altogether soon. Does antiX keeping sysVinit as an option depend on continued Debian support for it or do you think you’d keep it even if they drop it?

"--"

[sybokMember]

Sounds good.

* antiX will ship only with window managers.

This got me a bit confused; I thought net and core ISOs|builds do not contain any WMs.

* Better/More ‘official’ support for community builds

I have not been very active in this area thus far.
I would welcome (not only) this process to be more open as it may help ease a possible transition when someone (ahem, probably @anticapitalista) decides to semi-retire from actively maintaining|developing antiX so that this OS may continue to thrive, i.e. LLAP.
I believe that a similar sentiment has been already expressed by @masinick in the past.

[PPCMember]

I was away (I went half a country away for a job interview) when I saw this post and that made my day, knowing that anticapitalista is thinking hard about the future of this fine OS.

As requested, comments:

–

anticapitalista wrote:

* antiX will continue to be Debian-based and free of systemd and elogind (at least on all our iso files).
* We will continue to provide (an) antiX custom kernel(s)

Very important technical stuff that basic users don’t much care about, but that’s a great (under the hood) part of what makes antiX different from most distros, and also so light. I can’t say I know anything about that section of antiX, but I always defer to the choices you (anticapitalista) make on those subjects. I’m like a car owner that likes to “pimp my ride”- I may change the outside of my “car”, applying a customized paint job with flames, but never, ever touch the engine, that’s already running perfectly.

anticapitalista wrote:

* antiX will ship only with window managers.

(I assume this applies only to Base and Full isos)
This is the “customized paint job” I mentioned – kind of- Window Managers are the other reason why antiX is so light. Considering all the changes to the default config files, and added scripts, I don’t think that calling “ZZZ-IceWM” a “D.E.” would be technically wrong. I some times (something that I never shared) think of it as “Zicewm”- it includes a Window Manager with a customized menu that includes Favorites (a.k.a. the “Personal Menu”); Recent Files; app-select, an add-on that provides search features to the menu, but also manages application shortcuts (allowing them to be placed on the Personal Menu, the Toolbar or the Desktop); a fully featured File Manager (ZzzFM) that also manages desktop icons; a compositor (off by default, to save system resources); a GUI to set and manage desktop backgrounds (wallpapers); a connection manager (Connman); a GUI to manage all the important parts of the system (antiX Control Centre); a GUI to manage (almost) all the features the Window Manager provides; volume control; clipboard manager; and a simple way to update the system (antiX Updater); and even it’s own “App Store” (Package Installer); simple “Global search GUI” and even a visual task switcher

So I think that currently window managers is all that antiX requires (even if I think that we already have our very own D.E., created from lots and lots of patches)
If you add, in top of any of the default window managers, FT10, most users would never notice they are not using a modern D.E (note: I’m not “plugging” for it to be added, by default to antiX. I’ve always said: if FT10 is ever installed out of the box in antiX, it should be disabled by default, giving users the choice to select if they want the default interface antiX provided or the altered one, FT10 allows)

But I like to experiment “Enlightenment”, for example, is a great looking and light D.E. that plays extremely well with antiX. I wouldn’t mind if Package Installer offered a customized installation for it, that configures it perfectly under antiX.

anticapitalista wrote:

Wayland support

You know how I feel about it – we should, when technically possible, have a Wayland antiX version that users could test-drive and contribute to. This would not violate the “Window Managers” rule, since there are “Wayland Compositors” that are as close to simple Window Managers as possible (trying to clone “Openbox” under Wayland, for example). XWayland will probably be used for the foreseeable future (I would say be enabled by default by some 5-10 years more) and then by optional.

anticapitalista wrote:

Multiple init options

If Multi-init mean a single antiX version that provides multi-init choice (like the community created one already available- that I never unfortunately tested)- if it works correctly, it would be a blessing, reducing in half the work of creating a new antiX version AND at the same time reducing the difficulty new users have in choosing what version of antiX to install AND provide more choice to the user (that can switch to the desired init, instead of having to opt which iso to install).
I like this ONLY if properly tested. We already had some problems with stuff that has to be ported from sysv to runit. Now multiply that by 4 or 6 times…

anticapitalista wrote:

support for community builds

If that includes mentioning them on the official support documentation and linking to their .isos AND creating forum sections for each one of them, I 100% agree. It’s kind of what happened with Fluxbox, over on MX-Linux: it started just as Jerry’s project, was included almost like an “add-on” on the main .iso and now it’s part of MX, one of the available flavours (with it’s own section on MX-forum and all).

P.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.

[PPCMember]

Since this is the Official Thread to post about “Future antiX Linux” (sic), I’ll try to summarize some of the suggestions I made elsewhere (in no particular order of importance):

-Include a version of ile’s GUI to easily change the host name (for example, I made a version of it here: http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/2/#154708
I think antiX currently has no simple way to allow users to change the “computer’s name”, and it’s a feature that should be available in Control Centre

-Add encrypt/decrypt files to zzzfm’s contextual menu – antiX already includes this feature, but only from the command line (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/3/#post-156519)

-Add (at least) in Control Centre, the possibility to automatically remind users to check for updates (since antiX does not automatically auto-update, like most modern OSes): http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/3/#post-156637

-Make deb-installer more user friendly, offering users a GUI to enter the password, when needed (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/4/#post-156766) AND also revert the regression from antiX 23.2 test release that removed the “error message” that apt always displays, when installing something…

-Place, in IceWM (as it is in JWM and Fluxbox) the Personal Menu entry BEFORE the Applications menu. I’ve always assumed it was a tiny bug in IceWM’s configs. Users tend to expect to have their “Favorite apps” before the all the other apps… http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/4/#post-156979

-Include, antiX Conky Manager by default, in the Full version, and launch it from the relevant Control Centre entry (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/4/#156983)- NOTE: I’m NOT saying that the Modern Conky Layout should be used by default (I really think it should, since it provides most of the most used information the default conky provides, and more stuff, like the weather, in a modern looking – and easy to configure- way, kind of what MX-Linux does by default- but that’s my own personal opinion, and a radical departure from something that’s been part of antiX since the dawn of time).

-Automatically fix the wallpaper and conky’s position, when the user changes screen resolution via GUI (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/suggestions-for-antix-linux-24/page/4/#post-157159).

-Improve ZzzFM’s Trash bookmark and the option to restore files from trash (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/ideas-for-improving-antix-23-x/#post-153790) also check disk space, before “trashing” files (http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/ideas-for-improving-antix-23-x/#post-153868)

– Add a bookmark to Disk Manager to ZzzFM (so users can mount any drive partition from it)- http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/ideas-for-improving-antix-23-x/#post-153876

– Very, very optional: add a “Show files by creation date” ZzzFM contextual menu – http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/ideas-for-improving-antix-23-x/#post-153921

– Switch to a on-screen keyboard that works well with non English keyboards: http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/ideas-for-improving-antix-23-x/page/2/#post-153977

– Very, very optional (but a feature some more advanced users may require): adding a light batch file renamer to antiX Full – it was mentioned that Midnight Commander includes that feature, but I was never able to make it work… EDIT: or, at least, make one such application easily available from Package Installer

P.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.

[punrangerMember]

* antiX will continue to be Debian-based and free of systemd and elogind (at least on all our iso files).

I understand the opposition to systemd is a big reason why antiX even exists. From reading the forum, it also appears to me that a lot of work the devs do is fixing systemd/elogind dependencies. I’m not a technical user, so I don’t have deep insight in the pros and cons of systemd, but from my understanding, this is part of what makes antiX “lean and mean”. So I can only salute all the work that goes into maintaining this policy. But I do wonder: Will there come a time, sooner or later, when this policy becomes untenable?

* antiX will ship only with window managers.

I wholeheartedly support this policy. The current default setup of IceWM/ZZZ is my favorite. It’s really essential to the antiX experience. Again, I wonder: Will this policy be tenable in the foreseeable future?

* ‘Pure’ Wayland support is a very long way (sic) away. Using Xwayland *might* be an option, but it will not be the default in the foreseeable future.

Fine by me. I think it’s important that any new features in antiX are well proven. The recent change to Pipewire in the audio department seems to be an example of the technology not being quite mature, with multiple people reporting issues like missing volume controls. It’s one reason I’ve been sticking to antiX 22. I dread a situation like that with Wayland.

* Multiple init options. Building on the work started by Prowler.gr, we hope to offer s6 and s6-66 init options as well as our sysVinit and runit ones.

I see the value in this, although (again) as a non-technical user, I never committed to researching all the init options. But: For a first time user, choosing an antiX flavor is already confusing enough as it is. So excuse me for a little rant here. I’m quite certain that the user base for antiX could be enlarged if the experience for a first time Linux user was a little bit more streamlined. It took me quite some time to find out that the 64-bit Full version was the best choice for a beginner, and that was even without (the already bewildering) number of init options offered today. I read reviews from different sources which show that people often don’t even understand what antiX is all about. I did not either when I started – I just wanted something that worked for an old laptop.

So what I kind of would like was a “promoted beginner version” of antiX, where the only choice would be 32 or 64 bits. (How long can you keep up the 32 bit version, btw?). This would be a little more streamlined with:

-A “full” version with support for the most hardware. (This was the the most important reason for using full, I eventually found out.)
-LESS options in the GRUB menu. What I would like is a highlighted choice of kernels, because that’s what causing most hardware issues in my experience.
-An easier method of setting up persistence on USB sticks. It would be great if I could just write an ISO on a stick with whatever program, and boot off the stick with a preconfigured persistence. I understand this is hard to achieve if you’re not using the live USB maker, but first time users often do not have access to the live USB maker! And there is a huge learning curve in dealing with setting up persistence, I still do not understand it completely. But when you get it working, it’s fantastic. Everyone should have easy access to persistence!
-Maybe trim down the number of programs included in the Full version, to trim down ISO size, and possibly make it fit on a CD. The important thing for me is not having a lot of programs preinstalled. I never used a lot of them anyway, and I suspect many non-technical users do not either. Maybe the menu could contain shortcuts to getting those programs installed instead.
-As a first time user, I did appreciate the Software Installer. However, I soon found it limited in scope for my interests (music production). The CLI method is great if you’ve got limited resources, but I soon found I preferred using Synaptic. Is it possible to find a more flexible solution for the Software Installer?

antiX treads a peculiar ground, where on the one hand there are highly qualified Linux users who like the distro for technical reasons, such as opposition to systemd, and on the other there are users (like me) who primarily use it because it extends the life of their hardware, but don’t have dark arts skills in using the terminal. I don’t know if it is possible to reconcile those two positions. But if the main developer wants to focus on inclusiveness, and have more people take advantage of antiX, I think a little bit more streamlining for users like me could be in order. So, that’s the end of my rant.

antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg

[PPCMember]

Off topic, but important to this particular user:

punranger wrote:

The recent change to Pipewire in the audio department seems to be an example of the technology not being quite mature, with multiple people reporting issues like missing volume controls. It’s one reason I’ve been sticking to antiX 22

Install antiX 23.2 and be happy with it. Only the 64bits version should include Pipewire. If you use antiX 64bits FULL, then antiX Control Centre > “Hardware” tab has a switch that allows to instantly (and permanently, until you select otherwise) disable Pipewire and use plain ALSA, like you want. Use Pipewire only if you want to…
But it’s now perfectly mature, in antiX. Users may object to it’s sound quality on very high grade speakers. On my extremely low grade speakers, Pipewire sounds incredibly good and clear.

P.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.

[Xunzi_23Member]

zzfm plugged so often, rox is all user standard here and should not be allowed to disappear.

Maybe I said it already, I intensely dislike zz offering, such an overloaded cluttered
interface causes a ton of confusion.

[PPCMember]

Xunzi_23 wrote:

zzfm plugged so often, rox is all user standard here and should not be allowed to disappear.

I don’t think that even crossed anticapitalista’s mind. As far as I understand, rox is his preferred File Manager.
Zzz is my own preferred File Manager, because the single part of antiX that I never really could get used to was rox filer. I know how to customize it to have more “sane” (to me) settings (as per http://www.antixforum.com/forums/topic/short-essential-how-to-list-for-the-complete-linux-newbie/#post-44795). And yes, rox presents a much “cleaner” user interface. But it’s not what users either coming over from Windows or from other OSes (like I did, years ago) expect.
As I understand it, anticapitalista uses defaults for antiX that are not his personal default choices, but that make antiX easier to use for most users: that’s why it defaults to IceWM (and not Herbs, like anticapitalista uses), has desktop icons (both anticapitalista and me don’t like desktop icons, but most users expect to have them), and defaults to a tabbed File Manager that offers bookmarks to the default folders (documents, images, etc) and includes a Trash Can (like most users are used to).

If it was up to me my own personal choices, antiX would default to the IceWM desktop (and not zzz-IceWM, i.e. without desktop icons) with ZzzFM as default file manager (with at least some of my proposed changes) using small icons and the detailed view, a modern Conky, a different gtk theme and a different default system font, a different LibreOffice configuration, etc… But I’m aware that other users do not have to share my own personal taste in UI, so I usually make tiny usability suggestions, that I think will make antiX easier for MOST users.
NOTE: I may not use it, but I would never suggest that rox filer should be removed, unless a critical flaw was discovered on it’s code (and that’s unlikely since it’s been around since the stone age).

EDIT:
NOTE2: if I configure rox filer the way I expect files to be shown (ex: folders first, everything in alphabetical order, icons shown vertically, require double click, etc) AND open 2 rox filer windows, side by side, then it “makes sense” to me… I can, if I have to, work with it, because in antiX everything is so easy to configure to our tastes.
On the other hand, you can also configure ZzzFM so it looks (to you) less “cluttered”: you can hide it’s bookmarks and devices sections, default to single click etc, making it look much more like rox filer does, without even switching the default desktop/File Manager. You can make it even show huge icons, that can be nice for older users/users with bad eyesight… You can even add a “send to” contextual menu entry, to make it more similar to rox filer (and even old MS Windows, I’m not sure how modern versions are…)

P.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by PPC.

[rokytnjiForum Admin]

I’ll just roll with the flow and hope for the best like I always do.

I am always adhering to my moms advice.

” We don’t look gift horses in the mouth. ”

Sorry I have no suggestions. Fighting a modern truck oil change presently.
Plastic drain plug o-ring leaks. Off to autozone .

Sometimes I drive a crooked road to get my mind straight.
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
Motorcycle racing is rocket science.

Linux Registered User # 475019
How to Search for AntiX solutions to your problems

[RobinMember]

I’m perfectly fine with the master plan @anticapitalista has outlined in his threadstarting posting.

What I’d like to see added to the listing is:

– following a long term support strategy of each major version (just like we have it currently, e.g. antiX 19 has announced support until 2025, 21/22 until 2027 ), and letting people know the prognosed EOL of a major version already in its official announcement, not merely later on in a forum section header.

– 32 bit ISOs and kernels continued, hopefully including more recent modern antiX kernels then again (Currently the 6.x antiX kernel is missing in 32 bit, so you have to use the vanilla debian one)

– Moving the repos of former antiX versions to an antiX-archive once they are no longer officially supported, like the debian-archive, would be great, instead of deleting them.

Windows is like a submarine. Open a window and serious problems will start.

[punrangerMember]

Off topic, but important to this particular user:

Install antiX 23.2 and be happy with it. Only the 64bits version should include Pipewire. If you use antiX 64bits FULL, then antiX Control Centre > “Hardware” tab has a switch that allows to instantly (and permanently, until you select otherwise) disable Pipewire and use plain ALSA, like you want. Use Pipewire only if you want to…
But it’s now perfectly mature, in antiX. Users may object to it’s sound quality on very high grade speakers. On my extremely low grade speakers, Pipewire sounds incredibly good and clear.

Hi PPC. My comment should not be taken as criticism of the great work you and many others do here. And it is not so much about sound quality itself. I don’t just LISTEN to sound. I WORK with it, albeit as hobby. And sometimes I need to connect programs to external devices, and even connect one program to another. This is and was already a frustrating experience in Linux, sometimes requiring hours of work. I still don’t understand all the complexities of ALSA, PULSE or JACK. So when I read multiple posts about people having problems with simple playback of audio in Pipewire, I become wary. This hasn’t just been happening in antiX, btw. This is a transition that has been and is happening in many distros currently. I know that any transition to a new platform inevitably solves some problems, and creates some new ones. So I prefer to wait it out. Which is why your comment isn’t really off topic, I think. I very much prefer solutions that have been tested well before being introduced in antiX.

It’s great to hear that Pipewire is working well in antiX at present. Maybe I’ll take the leap soon.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by punranger.

antiX linux: The best way to revive an old computer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCTaUAP6sSg

[Brian MasinickModerator]

“I think. I very much prefer solutions that have been tested well before being introduced in antiX.”

In general, that is pretty close to the majority of changes that we make, if you use any current
release that remains supported.

We do, however, have testing versions available, for example antiX Sid. This is particularly
useful because the people that use it find various packages that impact the proper operation
of antiX, either in functionality, a file or library change that affects us and *has any
potential of having to be rewritten in order to maintain our no systemD stance. I thank
those who do this. It helps to maintain both independence and freedom from unwanted changes
in software that we inherit from either Debian directly or indirectly through application
package software. By having a few constant testing mechanisms, the few who get involved
in this resolve most of the significant upstream challenges, allow us to sometimes
contribute or at least offer fixes to any defective components we don’t initially author
ourselves.

--
Brian Masinick
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